Rebecca Ryan | How a Futurist Sees the World
For nearly two decades America has been in “Winter” – a time of stagnation, conflict, and disruption. During this time, we’ve asked ourselves “who are we and what do we stand for?” We’ve grown contentious politically, racially, across generations, and about the best way to proceed into the future. Many now wonder how American society will find stability and cohesiveness in the years to come.
In this interview, Rebecca Ryan explains the changes our nation is going through and how these changes can be harnessed for a positive future. Rebecca explains the concepts of “Winter” and “Spring” as well as the “browning” and “graying” of America. She also shares her insights about how America will respond to these changes and how you too can practice futuring.
Rebecca has spent her career consulting with large and small organizations to prepare them for the changes to come. Rebecca has authored a book, ReGENERATION: A Manifesto for America’s Next Leaders, detailing these changes and how we can ready ourselves to remain relevant and competitive in the world to come.
Rebecca Ryan:
Everybody knows that we're going to have autonomous vehicles, but how are we going to address that? What is that actually going to look like? I'm working with a community right now in Chattanooga, and we're asking the question, would it be possible that in Chattanooga, you didn't have to have a car to have a prosperous life? I mean, just think about that, what American city could you move to today where having a car is optional? There are only a handful of them.
Don MacPherson:
If you have ever wondered what separates top performers from everyone else, you probably discovered it is just a couple differentiators that determine wild success from average results. My name is Don MacPherson, and for two decades, I've been working with executives to help them optimize performance at the individual, team, and organization levels. Now I interview exceptional performers in athletics, music, entertainment, and business, so we can all learn from them. Welcome to 12 Geniuses.
What will life be like for you in 2030? With all the new technologies, trends, and uncertainty today, looking out 10 or more years might seem impossible, but not according to today's guest. Rebecca Ryan is a futurist who helps communities, companies, and individuals shape the future they want to create. Rebecca is the founder of Next Generation Consulting. She is resident futurist of the Local Government Institute of Wisconsin and board chair of the Institute for Zen Leadership. In our conversation, Rebecca is going to give us some advice for how we can be better futurists for our communities, companies, and for our personal lives.
Rebecca, welcome to 12 Geniuses.
Rebecca Ryan:
I am so glad to be here. I've had a ball listening to the first few episodes of this, and it's wonderful to be on the show with you.
Don MacPherson:
It's great to have you. Let's start with the state of America. It's a big question. Is life in America better than it's ever been?
Rebecca Ryan:
The meta-answer is it depends who you are. It really depends who you are. If you are a member of the working class, it's not better than it was in the 1970s. If you're a person who's well educated and out of debt, life maybe is better for you, but it really depends.
Don MacPherson:
Let's start with the people for whom life is better. Why is it better for them?
Rebecca Ryan:
Well, we've seen this divergence. If you look at the status of the middle class over time, since the Carter administration, we're seeing that the middle class is not making the same kinds of gains because things like healthcare and education, housing have all gotten so much more expensive. So, for those folks, their dollar isn't going as far. Increasingly, we're in a knowledge-based society. So, if you are a knowledge worker, life is better for you. There's more demand for your skills. And that supply and demand ratio means you're making more money. It really is a different answer depending on where you sit.
Don MacPherson:
When we look at metrics around happiness and opioid use and suicides, they're all headed in the wrong direction. What are the reasons for this?
Rebecca Ryan:
If I were to make a conjecture, you use the word happiness, and what we know is that a person's happiness is tied, in a way, to income. I believe the latest figure I saw is, if you're earning $72,000 a year, that's kind of the happiness cutoff. And then you have diminishing returns. More money than that doesn't have the same linear impact on your happiness. Your happiness tops out at that. And when you look at how many American households, or Americans, are earning $72,000 a year, it's not equally spread across a population like it was generations ago.
I think some of it is a sense of hopelessness. And some of it is a sense of like, man, no matter what I do, I can't get ahead. In some states, I'm thinking specifically of Western states like Washington and California, if your middle class, your household is holding five jobs. Five jobs, right? And that's to be middle-class in California. Again, kind of goes back to the cost of being middle-class is higher than it's ever been.
Don MacPherson:
In your book, Regeneration, you explain that we are in winter in America. What do you mean by winter in America?
Rebecca Ryan:
America goes through these seasonal cycles, spring, summer, fall, winter. And my premise in Regeneration is that America entered winter in 2001. And each of these seasons takes about a generation. So, we will emerge from winter in about 2020. For your listeners, it might be helpful to think that we've been through three other winters. The first one, the American Revolution, the second one, civil war and reconstruction, and the third, the Great Depression. And what do all three of those winters and the current one have in common are these things, winter is a time when America reflects. America sort of goes through a breakdown and then we reflect and we say, “Okay, who is our country for? And what is our country for? During the American Revolution, it was this question of, were we going to be a British colony or were we going to have sovereignty as a nation?
Who and what is America for? What do we stand for? Then, during the Civil War and reconstruction, I think everybody remembers that from history, who and what is America for? The Great Depression, the series of social and economic reforms that came out during the Great Depression, we decided to protect our elders. So, we had social security that was created during that time. We decided to protect farmers with crop insurance. We decided to protect banks and the individuals who kept their money in banks through FDIC insurance. Again, we were asking, who and what is America for? How can we become a better country for more people? And that very much is the same tone of this current winter time period.
Don MacPherson:
You mentioned that winter started, this cycle of winter started in 2001. Was 9/11 the impetus behind that, or were there other signs that winter was coming?
Rebecca Ryan:
Yeah, I believe 9/11 was kind of the cannon shot that started the whole thing. And every winter has started with a similar cannon shot, which you only know in hindsight. But the Boston Tea Party starting the American Revolution. President Lincoln's election starting the Civil War period. Between the time that Lincoln was elected and he moved into the White House, or took over the presidency, 11 Southern states said, “We're outta here.” So, his election set this off. Then, during the Great Depression, it's actually a bit uncanny how similar the great depressions start was to our great recessionary period. So, the Great Depression, sort of on a Friday afternoon, stock markets were tanking. So, there was a meeting of some of the largest blue-chip companies, U.S. Steel being front and center, saying, “All right, come Monday, we're really gonna pour all that we can into this to try to stave off.”
Well, over the weekend, individual consumers and stock owners, like you and I, talked ourselves into a frenzy as well, and then the run on the banks happened on Monday and it didn't matter what U.S. steel and others had planned.
Don MacPherson:
We're sitting here, it's December 12th, 2018. You're saying that winter is likely to end around 2020. That's not very far away. Do you see signs that we are entering the end of winter?
Rebecca Ryan:
When I ask audiences, “Show of hands, how many of you,” I give them three options, “how many of you feel like you're still deeply in winter, frozen stuck? Option 2, how many of you feel like things are thawing? Option 3, how many of you feel spring is happening, we're seeing new growth?” Most, over 70% of the audience is in thaw or springtime growth. I think, despite what the national headlines say, despite the bad news bears, most of America has turned the corner from winter to spring. The signs of that, from my perspective, at a very high level, no matter where you're in the country are, remember I said, during winter, we question who we're for and what we're for, right? The Robert Supreme Court said gays can marry. That was a pretty interesting and clear signal of who and what America is for.
Don MacPherson:
I want to expand on that because one of the things you write about in the book is that, after winter, we start to expand our human rights, typically human rights, correct? We're coming into spring very soon. What human rights do you expect to continually expand?
Rebecca Ryan:
I think the big one right now is immigration reform. We are a country of immigrants. We have the dreamers here. It's been very contentious. But what's interesting is I think everybody actually privately agrees on what we need to do, but it's still a very political and politicized issue.
Don MacPherson:
I want to ask about one other potential human right that's been in the news here in America, and that is prison reform. Is that one that you see as being on the table for significant adjustment?
Rebecca Ryan:
Yeah. In fact, I'm so proud. I work a lot with communities, public sector, and also quasi-public sector, so chambers of commerce, economic development entities. I feel like some of the most interesting prison reform work has been happening because of chambers of commerce and economic development organizations. Because I was trained as an economist, and so, if I'm going to be like a super linear nerdy, geeked out quanti economist, every single person represents human capital or labor. So, if we're incarcerating a whole bunch of people, and then we're complaining about having shortages and middle skill work and so forth, there's got to be a solution there somewhere.
How do our laws have to change? How does our institutional racism have to be addressed? And so, for example, in Oklahoma City, the chamber there has done a really nice job of leading the way, having this conversation about prison reform, kind of all the components around that. And they're wrapping it, or they're looking at it, I should say, they're looking at it through the lens of economic development.
Don MacPherson:
So, you're trained as an economist. I had a conversation with another economist recently, and that was, we were talking about the expansion of the American economy when women came into the workforce. And he was saying, “Well, actually, women didn't take men's jobs. The economy expanded.” Can't you make the same argument around immigration and prison reform?
Rebecca Ryan:
If you talk to anybody in construction, anybody in service, the service businesses, restaurants, hotels, hospitality, anybody in agriculture, they're scared to death of more punitive immigration reform because it's such an important part of their workforce. So, to me, it's about stabilizing our current workforce. And then, yes, about growing the pie.
Don MacPherson:
We're ending winter. What does spring look like?
Rebecca Ryan:
Making the turn from winter to spring isn't something that's going to just happen to us. We also have to happen to it. So, we have to help make the turn from winter to spring. And there are a few principles. If you look back over our previous three winters, there are a few principles that become self-evident about what it takes to make the turn from winter to spring. One of them is this idea of again, from nature, emergent properties. That if you put, so to go chem geek for just a second, if you put hydrogen and oxygen, two gases together in the right combination, it creates a liquid. That is kind of mind-blowing if you think about it. You put two gases together, you’d think, if you're a pedestrian like me, oh, it'll make another super gas. Or no, it makes two hydrogen, one oxygen. Makes wetness. It makes water.
That's amazing. And that's one of the things that we're starting to see now. I'll give you an absolute example. B Corporations. So, these for-profit companies that are amending their bylaws to be benefit corporations, to say that the way we're going to make profit, stay in business is actually gonna benefit our communities, benefit our employees, benefit our supply chain. I'm a B Corp. I hang out with other companies that are B Corps, and it's like an emergent property. We can put making money together with taking care of the supply chain in a way that raises the boats for everybody.
Don MacPherson:
You mentioned the concept of B Corp. Can you talk about a corporation that most people would know about that is a B Corp or benefit corp?
Rebecca Ryan:
Yeah. If you don't know about it, your kids do, Toms shoes, right? So, they're a buy one, give one. Warby Parker. I don't know if Warby is actually a B Corp, but again, it's a buy one, give one. But then there are others, like Danone is a B Corp. There are some big ones. Patagonia is a B Corp.
Don MacPherson:
In the book, you talk about the graying and browning of America. Can you explain what that means and how these demographic shifts will change the way we live and work?
Rebecca Ryan:
So, the graying of America is this idea that 11,000 people are turning 65 years old every single day, and they're living longer. So, we will have one of our largest demographics, the baby boom, will be our largest ever generation of senior citizens. And that is going to change a lot of things. It's already driving demand for healthcare. Healthcare was the only industry that sort of kept our economy afloat. It was still adding jobs during the recession because of the aging of America. So, the graying of America is about us getting older and baby boomers getting older. The browning of America is about how our complexion is changing. The data point on this that I think is amazing is between 2000 and 2010. If you look at that census period, over 90% of all the growth in cities was as a result of people of color, more people of color being born are growth in those demographics.
I think some of what the white nationalism that we're hearing about now, it is that drip, drip, drip. And all of a sudden, people are like, “Oh my goodness, we've got a situation on our hands here.” And the truth is that this has been happening in America for a while. Unfortunately, in America, we also love scapegoat. So, the tension around race, the renewed tension around race is about the once-majority population getting freaked out, good and freaked out about the fact that America is no longer as homogenous as it was once was, and we're looking for a scapegoat at a time when we're in winter, and things feel more wobbly than ever for a lot of people.
Don MacPherson:
You spend a lot of time working with communities to helping them plan the next 20 or 30 years, which sounds incredibly daunting, but I know you have a methodology for it, and we'll talk about that in part two. What kinds of things are these communities doing to improve the quality of life for their citizens?
Rebecca Ryan:
Well, one of the benefits that cities have is that they're expected to make 10-year plans, or like if you work in transportation, it takes a long time to build a road, or put in a light rail station, or any of those things. So, they have to look 10, 15, 20 years into the future. One of the things that cities are already doing, as an example, is they're looking at, okay, who is our city likely to be? And I'll give you one example, affordable housing. Affordable housing used to mean one thing. And for many people, it was Section 8 housing, like low-income housing. But affordable housing now means a lot of different things because of looking into the future and seeing who our residents will be.
So, if you are a baby boomer who's retiring, and you're thinking, and you're downsizing, you're like, “I got to get out of this big family house, my kids have left. I'm an empty nester.” To you, affordable housing means, I do want to sell my home at a premium, but then I need some place to live afterwards that's maybe a little more small, but I'm not willing to move into a retirement center. So, what does affordable housing mean for empty nest, baby boomers who are in that transitionary stage of their life? Affordable housing for young professionals, especially those who are moving to larger cities, affordable housing for them, it's an entry-level home. It might be a condo. It might not be a condo.
It's going to be a more simple home. It's not going to be that big family estate that a lot of boomers grew into. But even those starter homes, especially in big communities, are just incredibly out of reach.
Don MacPherson:
So, you had talked about affordable housing. What are some of the other issues that these communities are trying to address?
Rebecca Ryan:
Yeah. Transit, for sure. The idea, everybody knows that we're gonna have autonomous vehicles, but how are we going to address that? What is that actually going to look like? I'm working with a community right now in Chattanooga, and we're asking the question, would it be possible that, in Chattanooga, you didn't have to have a car to have a prosperous life? I mean, just think about that. What American city could you move to today where having a car is optional? There are only a handful of them. But increasingly, that's going to be the reality of our cities. It's going to have to be
Don MacPherson:
When an organization is planning a decade or more out, how can they make sure they build enough flexibility or agility to handle the unexpected?
Rebecca Ryan:
I love this question because the future is never a fixed point. And the example I love to use is that if you see photographs of the North Pole, and I don't mean like the ones taken from space, but people who have actually visited, there are a series of GPS location, signal, direction finders slammed into the snow on the North Pole. Well, why is that? It's because the North Pole is actually moving. So, if you're headed to the North Pole, you have to GPS coordinate it because it may not be in the exact same spot as it was three years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, which is just a meta version of what we're talking about here. The future isn't a fixed point.
When we work with a community, for example, and they say, “Hey, by 2040, we want to be in this place. We want to be a community that doesn't require cars to be prosperous,” as an example. Great, let's set our course on that today, and then let's come back in three or five years and see A, does that still make sense? B, has the North Pole moved? What's different?
Don MacPherson:
Our guest today is futurist, Rebecca Ryan. When we come back from this short break, Rebecca will give us advice on how you can more reliably see the future at your organization and in your own life.
This is the best time in human history to be alive. People are living longer, healthier lives, millions of people are escaping abject poverty every year, and diseases that used to be a death sentence are on the ropes. But the world is changing quickly, too. Artificial intelligence, advanced robotics, 3D printing, the internet of things, and a host of other technologies will change the way we live and work. Is your organization ready for it? 12 Geniuses isn't just a podcast. We are an organization that educates leaders about the changing world of work, so you can harness new technologies, demographic changes, and innovative business models. To learn how 12 Geniuses can help prepare your leadership team to take advantage of the changes that will shape the next decade, check us out at 12geniuses.com.
We are back with futurist and community visionary, Rebecca Ryan. We are going to shift gears and talk about how individuals and organizations can improve their ability to predict the future. Rebecca, each summer you lead something called Futurist Camp. Sounds fun. Can you explain what that is and who typically attends?
Rebecca Ryan:
Yeah. So, Futurist Camp is… Well, there is a camp component to it. People come together for three days at truly, like a camp for adults. There are canoe races and hatchet throwing, and all kinds of fun for adults that you… And it is at a camp setting. It's in the trees, in the woods, on a lake. But there are no PowerPoint decks. There's, basically, very little wireless internet. And the point of those first three days of residential camp is to dip people into foresight so that they understand what it is, how it's used, how it's different than strategic planning, so that they can… If you're thinking about it in a martial arts perspective, your first belt is a white belt and your last belt is a black belt, I'm trying to get people there, white belt, in foresight, so that they're just dangerous enough.
After folks leave camp, is once a month for six months, we regather on Zoom, on a web call. And I bring in faculty from around the world who talk about how they're using foresight within their communities or companies, or whatever the case is. It's the only place I know that you can get this kind of training, in foresight, because we just don't do it in the U.S. like we once did.
Don MacPherson:
I know you work with a lot of community planners who else would be a good attendee for Futurist Camp?
Rebecca Ryan:
Anyone is welcome. People who have planning strategy in their job description titles, executive directors of associations have come. Anybody is welcome. It does skew public sector, but we've had a lot of… We had the largest kazoo manufacturer in the U.S. at our most recent camp.
Don MacPherson:
You also mentioned foresight and the foresight model. Can you explain what that is and how it's used?
Rebecca Ryan:
Yeah. So, when I use the term foresight, I'm using that interchangeably with futuring. So, foresight and futuring are the same thing. To me, they're synonymous. And what foresight is, is a process, it's a multi-step process of looking at the future in a very analytical way. A lot of people are afraid of the future because it sort of has emotional undertones. This takes the emotion out of it, and it puts kind of logical data-driven plausibility back into it.
Don MacPherson:
And so, where does STEEP come in, STEEP methodology, or Four Forces of change, the Four Forces of change model? How does that fit in? And maybe you could talk through what STEEP stands for and what the four forces are.
Rebecca Ryan:
Sure. So, the foresight framework is a seven-step process. The first step is defining the domain that you're trying to explore. So, if we were working on transit in Minneapolis, it might be transit 2040. We're looking at the transit system within this specific service delivery area through 2040. Second step is to identify the forces and trends that are likely to impact that. Now, this is usually data. These are things that we're pretty sure are going to influence that domain in the future. So, you mentioned STEEP and Four Forces. STEEP is an acronym, and it's really easy to remember, and it's a really nice way to sort of think about what categories of trends might impact you.
And it stands for society, technology, economy, environment, politics, STEEP. And that's one way of categorizing these trends and forces. The second way is to use the four forces model, which Cecily Sommers wrote about in her book. Cecily is a Minneapolis-based futurist. I love her book called Think Like a Futurist. And the Four Forces model, it's similar to STEEP, but what I like about it is Cecily says, “No, there's actually a priority to the trends you need to think about.” And the priority order is this, number one, resources. Number two, technology. Number three, demographics. And number four, governance.
So, resources trump technology. As we know from Flint, Michigan, you have a water crisis, it doesn't matter if you have open government or transparent government, nobody cares. They care about safe water. So, resources, air, water, access to energy would be in there. All those resources that we need to live, breathe, and move through life. Technology piece, this is all different kinds of technology. It could be desalinization if you're out on the West Coast. It could be autonomous transportation, those kinds of technologies. Third thing, with respect to demographics, people are what make up the economy.
So, we've got to be mindful about, who is our community becoming? And then the fourth thing being governance, governance is two things. It's certainly the rule of law. So, if we pass a new policy, like Madison just changed its comprehensive plan. And now you can have more density in one area. Like, they're really promoting, if you're a two flat, can you make it a three flat, and so forth? That's a policy change, but it's also about the rule of markets. One of the things that has been, I think, very exciting, and it started during the great recession, is this notion that we can now, through the Jobs Act, the Federal Jobs Act, it's a misnomer. It has nothing to do with actual jobs.
But through the Federal Jobs Act, you, if you are starting up a new venture, you can get a micro loan from me as an individual. So, crowdsourcing, right? That's now legal. And it didn't used to be legal. You used to have to do that through SEC rules and other protections. So, rule of law, rule of markets under governance.
Don MacPherson:
Can you talk about a case study of a company you've worked with or a community you've helped using this model and the results they've realized?
Rebecca Ryan:
Yeah. I work primarily with communities or the public sector. And this might seem like kind of a pedestrian example, but Charleston, South Carolina, many of us know it because we've visited there. And it's one of the most hospitable places. I think Condé Nast has named it like the best place to visit for years, and years, and years, and years. I was doing a project in Charleston because they were blowing through all of their population targets. Like, people said, “Oh, you're gonna grow by 10,000 households a year,” and they were just blowing through that. These are example numbers. These aren't actual numbers.
Some of the partners in Charleston led by the Chamber of Commerce, they said, “We need to do some futuring around what our quality of life is going to be like in 10, 15 years’ time. What is our quality of life going to be when we have a million people in our Metro?” we did this work. And one of the things that we realized was the way that they fund their infrastructure, bridges, roads in particular, has to change because a lot of their roads and bridges were graded at a C or a D level by the Society of Civil Engineers. Charleston is built on bridges. And if one of those bridges goes down or a lane on those bridges go down, it is… Commuting is already like the single daily activity, most injurious to happiness because it's so unpredictable.
So, they were just panicked about their infrastructure. And what happened, as a result, if you can believe this, is the Chamber led an initiative to increase the gas tax. So, we had a Chamber of Commerce leading the charge to increase the tax, which is the opposite of what most people think. Most people think chambers are anti-tax, they're pro-business, they're this, they're that. But they saw the data, they saw their future, and they said, “If we don't fix our infrastructure, we might be able to attract people, but we will not be able to retain them. And we will not be able to move them effortlessly through our region.” So, that was a pretty cool outcome, and they got it passed.
Don MacPherson:
Season One of 12 Geniuses is really structured around this idea of change. And so, we've had a lot of experts talking about different types of change. So, if you're to give one piece of advice to a citizen, looking to stay prepared and relevant in a future that's a decade from now, what would that piece of advice be?
Rebecca Ryan:
My one piece of advice is to read or relate more broadly. What I mean by that is, if you tend to watch Fox, dip into some MSNBC. If you tend to watch MSNBC, dip into some Fox. Even more importantly, if you're always thinking about politics, as the people in my household are, then maybe you need to start thinking about the social changes that are happening. But basically, get out of your comfort zone. We all, as we get older, tend to get into these lanes that we can too easily stay in. The reason I say read more broadly or relate more broadly, develop friends with people who don't do what you do. The reason that's so important is because if you want to be future ready, change happens from the margins.
And the more you are exposed to the margins, the fringes, change starts there and it works its way into the mainstream. So, if you want to be future ready, you need to pay attention to things that people are just now starting to talk about, starting to think about. And those things will… The chances of them coming into the mainstream are higher. And if you want to be future ready, you need to know about those things.
Don MacPherson:
This is great because what I hear is empathy building. You're talking about expanding your range of relationships, which, by defaults, helps you expand your empathy.
Rebecca Ryan:
I hadn't thought about that, but when you use that word empathy, I was with a group of county commissioners working on the future of their association. Thinking about the future of counties and the future of the association that serves county elected officials. And what counties have to do in this day and age is really an act of God. They've got to run the county hospital; they have to take care of the sheriff. There are so many things that they do on a social services front. And our needs there are growing. We talked about, what is the one skill that all of us need so that counties can run more effectively? And empathy was like the killer app. It was like the killer skill.
Don MacPherson:
As you see the future, is there a trend that you find particularly concerning if you're for humanity?
Rebecca Ryan:
Yeah. I mean, I think the haves and the have-nots, this is a huge concern. One of my undergraduate degrees, I had a minor in poli-sci, a major in international relations. And when you look at the Theory of Revolution, revolutions happen when people are promised A, but they get something much less than A. you think about the, the Arab Spring. That was it. That was a generation whose parents got a really nice standard of living and who, they, themselves, could not get jobs. That is revolution. I think, in America, we have long had this promise that you can make it here. It doesn't matter where you start, you can end up fulfilling all of your dreams. Increasingly, that is not happening, and that is a recipe for revolution.
Don MacPherson:
This is the last question. Is there a trend that you find particularly hope inspiring?
Rebecca Ryan:
Yes. this is going to sound like a cliche, but I actually have good examples. I find the next generation insanely inspiring. We talked about Toms Shoes as an example of a B corporation started by a millennial. I think about the young evangelicals of America, who they got together, and they got their elders running the evangelical churches of America to include climate change and our need to take care of our physical environment as part of the charter. That's been unprecedented because climate change has often been a Republican versus a democratic issue. And here are these young evangelicals making the case with their elders to say, “We need to admit that this is happening and this is part of what God wants from us to do is to take care of his creation.”
That feels amazing to me. Then finally, the number of people who are women, who are people of color, who are running for public office, these midterms in 2018 have been something. And that gives me hope. And it's right on time with spring. Spring is always about different people doing different things in new ways. It's about regeneration.
Don MacPherson:
I said that the last question was going to be the last question. This is going to be the last question, Rebecca, how can people find you?
Rebecca Ryan:
Easy. My name, rebeccaryan.com. And Rebecca is spelled R-E-B-E-C-C-A. Rebeccaryan.com.
Don MacPherson:
And we will include that in the show notes. Rebecca, thank you for being a genius.
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